Talk:The Five

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't recall any of the games mentioning 'The Five' specifically. A list of names is always used, and even then not one person names all five people. Jerry bush forgot to sign.

Aimee vs. Linda

I think we had this discussion a long time ago... anyway, the fact is that there is contradicting evidence in the games as to who the fifth exilee was. The early games refer to Aimee among the five, while A4 (and maybe soem earlier Avernums? I don't remember) seems to have inconsistently retconned Linda into the early cave magic. However, some of those references -- praticularly the one to her as part of the Akhronath assault -- sound like goofs.

IMHO, there is a large mass of situational evidence on Aimee's side. Given Aimee's reclusiveness and her lack of eminently practical or powerful magic, it makes no sense that Erika AND Patrick AND Rone AND Solberg would be so close to her, and would talk about her as they do, without her having been part of the Five. There are also numerous statements like "then Linda came to the Tower"... if Linda had been one of the Five, those statements would make little sense, given that she would have been involved in the Tower's creation and would presumably have lived there since the beginning. And if Linda really was part of the assault on Akhronath, why is it that NOBODY -- not her, not Grah-Hoth, not Kelner, no one -- ever comments on that?

IMHO, it's safe to say that Aimee was in the Five and Linda was not. At any rate I think it's a mistake to state that Linda was a member; the evidence is too sketchy. --- Slarty 12:13, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

This is comment I used (talking to Micah in Av1), along with the list of the Five in Exile III: "An army of warriors and mages, led by Rone, the Royal magician, Linda, Solberg, and most powerful of all, the incantatrix Erika. They, their apprentices, and our finest warriors did battle with the demons. We won, and imprisoned Grah-Hoth." --Drakey 12:46, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Just a question: If Jerry was right in saying the Five are never mentioned in that form in the game (no time to check the dumps), then how did we decide that there were five magi, rather than six (including both Linda and Aimee)? Disregard this if the game did say there were five wizards.

Does anyone else feel reminded of the "Five Wizards" question in Middle-earth? Arancaytar | Send Reply! --- That is not dead which can eternal lie... 04:26, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

That quote is the one I was talking about. If you look up the same line in E1, Linda isn't mentioned. So at the very least it's an E/A conflict. When I finally get a computer again in about a week, I'll look up the other relevant lines. --Slarty 09:29, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

From Exile III, a book called The History of Exile: "Among these were several powerful mages, all of whom were at the losing end of a political struggle. These were Solberg and Patrick, Rone and Linda. And, most importantly, Erika. They imprisoned the demon Grah-Hoth who ruled the caverns, and formed a nation, which they called Exile as a constant reminder that this was not our true home." --Drakey 09:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

More on conflicting information

With two exceptions, there were no changes made between Exile and Avernum regarding any of this stuff. However, there were changes made between Exile 1 and 2, and Exile 3, which were preserved in the Avernum line. Inconsistent retconning to say the least. Data points:

• Exile/Avernum 1
  • Rone: "We raided Akhronath, his now ruined fort, to the east. I, Patrick, and Erika trapped him is a powerful bottle of our own making..."
  • Rone's journal: "In one of the drawers of the desk, you find a leather-bound journal, filled with cramped, scratchy writing. You soon determine that it is the incomplete memoirs of one Rone the wizard. He was cast into Exile along with two other mages, Erika Redmark and Patrick Padraig, after they were at the wrong end of a political struggle in the Mages Guild... Of greatest interest is the account of their defeat of the Demon Chieftain Grah-Hoth. They, with help of a large band of warriors and a small cadre of mage apprentices, stormed his fort..."
  • Everyone involved in the assault on Akhronath talks about it. Linda does not talk about it.

• Exile/Avernum 2
  • Solberg: "You see, all the most powerful mages in Avernum, me and Erika and Aimee and Patrick, we were colleagues on the surface world. Us, and Garzahd... He envied us our skill. He thought us a challenge to his aspirations. So he spent his time, he and Hawthorne, getting each of us exiled one after another."

• Exile/Avernum 3
  • ON THE HISTORY OF EXILE (Book): "Misfits and magical creatures alike were sent through a one way teleporter into Exile. Among these were several powerful mages, all of whom were at the losing end of a political struggle. These were Solberg and Patrick, Rone and Linda. And, most importantly, Erika. They imprisoned the demon Grah-Hoth who ruled the caverns..."

• Avernum 1 only (no Exile 1 counterpart)
  • Micah: "An army of warriors and mages, led by Rone, the Royal magician, Linda, Solberg, and most powerful of all, the incantatrix Erika. They, their apprentices, and our finest warriors did battle with the demons. We won, and imprisoned Grah-Hoth."
  • Lich Lord (counterpart to Prince Hrothar): "Solberg and Erika Redmark and Patrick and Linda were the greatest of us. They fight on. I stay here, watching our prisoner..."

• Avernum 4
  • Description: "And that is why, even today, after years of renovations and expansions, the Castle still looks more like it was grown than built. Wizards like Solberg and Linda shaped the Castle out of living rock."
  • The Wars of Avernum (Book Description): "It was then that the Archmagi Erika, Solberg, Patrick, and others fought the demonic forces of Grah-Hoth, purging them from the tunnels and winning a place to live and grow in peace."

Given all this, I think the simplest way to maintain integrity is to go with the following version of events. Rone, Patrick, and Erika were exiled together (Rone) but other mages, namely Solberg, Linda, and Aimee, were exiled one by one in some order (Solberg). All of those mages were exiled before the assault on Akhronath. Rone, Patrick, and Erika led the assault (Rone). Solberg had an important role as well (A4 book, also since he already would have been a member of the Triad), and so did Linda (E/A3 book, Micah), but to a lesser degree (lack of discussion of her role by Linda, Rone, or anyone else). Presumably, Aimee was on scrying duty. 'X' was not an apprentice like Silverio, but was a later exile.

We are trapped in a maze of our own devising, here; the real problem is that this idea of "the Five" is completely fabricated! References to the boons and leadership of Solberg, Erika, Patrick, and Rone in the early days abound, but there are none about Linda, aside from very inconsistent retcons about the Akhronath assault.

Given that 18 articles link to the Five, and most of them have unlinked references that would also need to be edited, my suggestion is leave the title as is, call it an artifact of scholarship, and simply explain in the article that there were basically Four, but Linda and Aimee are sometimes thrown in.

Oof. -- Slarty

Membership in the Five, the Triad, etc.

Just a bit of a recap, mentioned here as notes:

The political struggle that left Garzahd as Hawthorne's Grand Vizier (or equivalent) banished three members:

• Rone "the Wizard"
• Patrick Padraig
• Erika Redmark

(Source: A book in A1, the memoirs of Rone the Wizard.)

These same three are named in the same source as the mages (and implicitly the only fully trained ones) who led the army to defeat Grah-Hoth. In the source, they are accompanied by "a small cadre of mage apprentices".

However, King Micah says in A1:

"An army of warriors and mages, led by Rone, the Royal magician, Linda, Solberg, and most powerful of all, the incantatrix Erika. They, their apprentices, and our finest warriors did battle with the demons. We won, and imprisoned Grah-Hoth."

My interpretation is that this is an inconsistency (because while Linda and Solberg being apprentices could work, they would not be named as leaders). Thus, my interpretation: Rone's wrong or biased. We know he's close with Patrick and Erika through the political thing, and he might have emphasized his and his friends' role in the demon war. Jeff has a history of including inaccurate/biased sources in his games without clearly identifying them as such (see Glowing Fungi). Note, however, that Micah has it wrong too, because he leaves out Patrick (who is mentioned as a sage like Aimee elsewhere, which makes me wonder just what he was doing among the battle mages).

(Oh. I just realized what "You forgot Patrick" reminded me of. :P )

A golem in A1 (whose name I'm not sure about) states:

Those still among the living. Solberg and Erika Redmark and Patrick and Linda were the greatest of us. They fight on. I stay here, watching our prisoner.

No clue why he omits Rone - rumors of his death are greatly exaggerated.

In A2, Solberg says:

"You see, all the most powerful mages in Avernum, me and Erika and Aimee and Patrick, we were colleagues on the surface world. Us, and Garzahd."

Note that - contrary to what Rone said above - Solberg considers himself part of the political struggle. He, on the other hand, leaves out Rone. Presumably, they didn't much like each other. Solberg, in turn, is known to have a grudge against Linda, which means he might have deliberately left her out too.

(Interestingly, there's a mage named Enla in Motrax's Cave in Grah-Hoth, who was also exiled by Garzahd: "Yes, before I was exiled, I knew him. He frightened me. He also wanted me. When I refused him, I found out how much power he had. The political kind. I ended up here. I hate him.")

---

So... Rone, Patrick, Solberg, Erika, Aimee and Linda, all banished to the caves. Erika was clearly their leader - everybody agrees on that. Patrick must have been a close buddy and popular, because he also is listed in all accounts.

However, we seem to have three groups who basically ignore each other: Rone leaves out Solberg, Aimee and Linda. Solberg leaves out Rone and Linda. Linda and Aimee never mention their struggle against Garzahd, so we don't have their perspective. What is definite is that Aimee was never part of the demon war.

-- Arancaytar | Send Reply! --- That is not dead which can eternal lie... 04:53, 7 August 2007 (PDT)

Reply

The "golem" quote is attributed (correctly) earlier on this talk page -- it's from the Lich Lord known in Exile as Prince Hrothar.

Solberg mentions that the wizards were exiled "one after another" -- not all at once. Rone's memoirs just mention that he, Patrick and Erika were exiled together (presumably the first three wizards to be exiled). His other comment only mentions the three of them presumably because only the three of them cast the sealing spell itself; it's not a general comment about the assault.

As for Solberg, he only makes one comment, and he was rattling off a list; the simplest explanation is that he wasn't attempting to be exhaustive. A Solberg-Rone feud is not something that would go unmentioned; in this case, total lack of evidence is disproof.

Exile 1 makes it pretty clear that Linda didn't show up until after everyone else. Exile 3 pretty much retcons her into the original banishment and demon war, etc. As far as The Five are concerned I stand by the summary in my last three paragraphs above.

-- Slarty 06:38, 7 August 2007 (PDT)

X

In Avernum 6, X claims to have been part of the group (naming Erika, Solberg, Rone and Patrick as the other four, but leaving out Aimee and Linda). This is interesting because it doesn't appear to have come up in any of the other sources referenced on this discussion page.

Screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/jIgNyFf.png

"Mighty wizard. On surface. Power struggle. Was on side that lost. With lost Erika. With old Solberg. With lost Patrick and Rone. Sent to underworld."

(Note that X may in this case be an unreliable narrator by design, because he is old enough to plausibly misremember his own arrival in Avernum, and also to have no living contemporaries - besides Solberg - to call him out on a lie.)

-- Arancaytar | Send Reply! --- That is not dead which can eternal lie... 16:27, 3 August 2022 (UTC)